Okay, what's the truth about engine break-in?

In article

Post by Doc
Any thoughts? Real world tests of engines broken in one way vs another?

The Corvette manual says to just drive the damn thing hard, no special
oil change required.

In fact, the Corvette engineers say that if you baby it initially, you
won't be happy in the long run with the engine's performance.

Jeff

2007-11-24 14:12:54 UTC

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by Doc
Any thoughts? Real world tests of engines broken in one way vs another?

The Corvette manual says to just drive the damn thing hard, no special
oil change required.
In fact, the Corvette engineers say that if you baby it initially, you
won't be happy in the long run with the engine's performance.

Reference for this, please.

However, even if this is true, this may not apply to say a Civic or a Prius.

Jeff

2007-11-24 15:06:27 UTC

Post by Jeff

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by Doc
Any thoughts? Real world tests of engines broken in one way vs another?

The Corvette manual says to just drive the damn thing hard, no special
oil change required.
In fact, the Corvette engineers say that if you baby it initially, you
won't be happy in the long run with the engine's performance.

Reference for this, please.

His brother-in-law's uncle, whose sister dated a guy who once washed a
Corvette at his gas station told him this.

I mean, THAT's right from the auto expert's mouth.

Elmo P. Shagnasty

2007-11-24 19:22:29 UTC

Post by Jeff

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In fact, the Corvette engineers say that if you baby it initially, you
won't be happy in the long run with the engine's performance.

Reference for this, please.

Car and Driver magazine.

larry moe 'n curly

2007-11-25 05:10:40 UTC

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In fact, the Corvette engineers say that if you baby it initially, you
won't be happy in the long run with the engine's performance.

Post by Jeff
Reference for this, please.

Car and Driver magazine.

The fashion magazine for pot-bellied, middle-aged, divorced or soon to
divorce guys?

What does the Corvette owner's manual say?

C. E. White

2007-11-26 17:11:19 UTC

Post by Elmo P. Shagnasty
In article

Post by Doc
Any thoughts? Real world tests of engines broken in one way vs another?

Seems to me that you should follow the vehicle manufacturer's
recommendation. Toyota usually says things like:

"Break-in period

"Drive gently and avoid high speeds.

"Your vehicle does not need an elaborate break-in. But following a few
simple tips for the first 1600 km (1000 miles) can add to the future
economy and long life of
your vehicle:

* Do not drive over 88 km/h (55 mph).
* Run the engine at moderate speed between 2000 and 4000 rpm.
* Avoid full-throttle starts.
* Try to avoid hard stops during the first 300 km (200 miles).
* Do not drive slowly with the manual transmission in a high gear.
* Do not drive for a long time at any single speed, either fast or
slow.
* Do not tow a trailer during the first 800

Nissan says things like:

"BREAK-IN SCHEDULE

"CAUTION

"During the first 1,200 miles (2,000 km), follow these recommendations
to obtain maximum engine performance and ensure the future reliability
and economy of your new vehicle. Failure to follow these
recommendations may result in shortened engine life and reduced engine
performance.

* Avoid driving for long periods at constant speed, either fast or
slow, and do not run the engine over 4,000 rpm.
* Do not accelerate at full throttle in any gear.
* Avoid quick starts.
* Avoid hard braking as much as possible.
* Do not tow a trailer for the first 500 miles (800 km). Your engine,
axle or other parts could be damaged.
....
"It is normal to add some oil between oil maintenance intervals or
during the break-in period, depending on the severity of operating
conditions.

Ford says things like:

"BREAKING-IN YOUR VEHICLE

"Your vehicle does not need an extensive break-in. Try not to drive
continuously at the same speed for the first 1,000 miles (1,600 km) of
new vehicle operation. Vary your speed frequently in order to give the
moving parts a chance to break in.

"Do not add friction modifier compounds or special break-in oils
during the first few thousand miles (kilometers) of operation, since
these additives may prevent piston ring seating. See Engine oil in the
Maintenance and Specifications chapter for more information on oil
usage."
....
"ESSENTIALS OF GOOD FUEL ECONOMY

"Measuring techniques

"Your best source of information about actual fuel economy is you, the
driver. You must gather information as accurately and consistently as
possible. Fuel expense, frequency of fill-ups or fuel gauge readings
are NOT accurate as a measure of fuel economy. We do not recommend
taking fuel economy measurements during the first 1,000 miles (1,600
km) of driving (engine break-in period). You will get a more accurate
measurement after 2,000 miles-3,000 miles (3,000 km-5,000 km).

Honda says things like:

"Break-in Period

"Help assure your vehicle's future reliability and performance by
paying extra attention to how you drive during the first 600 miles
(1,000 km). During this period:

* Avoid full-throttle starts and rapid acceleration.
* Avoid hard braking. New brakes need to be broken-in by moderate use
for the first 200 miles (300 km).

"You should follow these same recommendations with an overhauled or
exchanged engine, or when the brakes are relined."

GM says things like:

"New Vehicle Break-In

"Notice: Your vehicle does not need an elaborate break-in. But it will
perform better in the long run if you follow these guidelines:
* Keep your speed at 55 mph (88 km/h) or less for the first 500 miles
(805 km).
* Do not drive at any one constant speed, fast or slow, for the first
500 miles (805 km). Do not make full-throttle starts. Avoid
downshifting to brake, or slow, the vehicle.
* Avoid making hard stops for the first 200 miles (322 km) or so.
During this time your new brake linings are not yet broken in. Hard
stops with new linings can mean premature wear and earlier
replacement. Follow this breaking-in guideline every time you get new
brake linings.
* Do not tow a trailer during break-in. See Towing a Trailer on page
423 for the trailer towing capabilities of your vehicle and more
information.

"Following break-in, engine speed and load can be gradually
increased."

The common themes seems to be that for the first 500 to 1000 miles -

* Don't drive to fast (55 mph seems arbitrarily slow)
* Vary speeds
* Avoid full throttle operation
* Avoid hard stops
* Don't tow

Ed

Ph@Boy

2007-11-24 13:23:33 UTC

Post by Doc
There seem to be two camps. I've seen those that advocate stomping on
the engine to high revs and backing off in the initial break-in
because of some alleged benefit.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.toyota/msg/fbdecfe9b55b6830?dmode=source
Both claim scientific reasons for their method. It seems the "flog
the engine" guys say to change the oil soon after an initial run
period of say 20 miles to get rid of initial metal particles, the
above quoted appears to say those metal particles are beneficial.
Any thoughts? Real world tests of engines broken in one way vs another?

Just drive it as you normally would. Check your owners manual as well.
Change the oil at the manufacturer recommended intervals.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

2007-11-24 15:30:28 UTC

Post by ***@Boy
Just drive it as you normally would. Check your owners manual as well.
Change the oil at the manufacturer recommended intervals.

Indeed. The manufacturer's engineering staff know what is best for
braking in that engine. If you do not trust the manufacturer, why buy
his product? If you trust him enough to buy the car, believe the
manual.

Jeff

2007-11-24 14:11:07 UTC

What scientific reasons?

Conjecture is more like it.

There are no studies offered to back up the claims made in the post.

Post by Doc
It seems the "flog
the engine" guys say to change the oil soon after an initial run
period of say 20 miles to get rid of initial metal particles, the
above quoted appears to say those metal particles are beneficial.
Any thoughts? Real world tests of engines broken in one way vs another?

Such real-world tests, unless done with the proper controls and done
with several trials would be anecdotes. The plural of anecdotes is not data.

The best advice would be to follow the break-in procedures recommended
by the vehicle manufacturer, the people who know the engines the best,
and the people who employ people with real expertise.

Jeff

Retired VIP

2007-11-24 16:53:20 UTC

Post by Jeff

What scientific reasons?
Conjecture is more like it.
There are no studies offered to back up the claims made in the post.

Such real-world tests, unless done with the proper controls and done
with several trials would be anecdotes. The plural of anecdotes is not data.
The best advice would be to follow the break-in procedures recommended
by the vehicle manufacturer, the people who know the engines the best,
and the people who employ people with real expertise.
Jeff

Jeff make some good points. I have never seen any real-world,
double-blind studies examining this topic. Common sense would seem to
indicate that, with today's close manufacturing tolerances, an
extended break-in is unnecessary. But even with close manufacturing
tolerances, there are still going to be high and low spots on the
cylinder walls, ring diameters, bearing surfaces, etc. that will have
to mate in with their corresponding surfaces. This will take time and
will result in higher wear products than will show up later in the
life of the engine.

All I can do is tell you what I do with a new engine:

I drive it easily for the first 500 miles and very the engine rpm's
within reason (I don't lug the engine at low rpm's, neither do I hit
red line).

After the first 500 miles, I will run the engine up to red line, at
full throttle for brief intervals. I hold it at high rpm for just a
moment then ease off to normal engine speed.

I change the oil and filter after about 1000 miles using a name-brand
multigrade conventional oil with the weight recommended by the
manufacturer.

After the first 1000 miles, I drive normally. The second oil and
filter change is at about 3000 miles. The rest are about every 4000
to 5000 miles. I use name-brand, multiweight, conventional oils and
name brand filters, no house brand oils or filters for my cars.

This has resulted in engines with will over 100,000 miles that don't
use more than a quart of oil between changes. It works for me so I
don't see any reason to change.

Jack

Bruce L. Bergman

2007-11-24 15:38:52 UTC

When in doubt, the procedures in the owners manual take precedence.

That said, I *still* think that you need to be overall gentle on the
car for the first 1,000 miles or so, and vary speeds deliberately on
the freeway rather than nail the Cruise Control at 70 and stay there.
If you need to stand on the gas for accident avoidance feel free, just
don't do a drag strip launch at every green light.

And even though they keep insisting it isn't necessary, do the first
oil and filter change early, say 1,000 miles. They may not be using
straight-30 non-detergent "break in oil" anymore, but the engine is
still going to spit out more friction products as the final bedding in
process happens.

And don't switch to synthetic oil till you have enough mileage to
determine the rings are bedded in and it isn't burning oil - 5,000
miles minimum.

--<< Bruce >>--

Ray O

2007-11-24 17:51:03 UTC

Automakers generally know a lot more about their engines and how they are
manufactured than the people who work in repair shops or write magazine
articles and blogs, so IMO, the safest thing to do is to follow the
automaker's break-in recommendations. I'm not sure about other automakers,
Toyota runs new engines to redline for a while after they are assembled, and
then again on a chassis dyno as the cars are coming off of the assembly
line.

I don't necessarily follow what I preach, and when got in the 200 ~ 300 new
cars I've driven, I just drove them the way I expected to use that
particular car, and experienced no engine problems.

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

mack

2007-11-24 18:28:42 UTC

Automakers generally know a lot more about their engines and how they are
manufactured than the people who work in repair shops or write magazine
articles and blogs, so IMO, the safest thing to do is to follow the
automaker's break-in recommendations. I'm not sure about other
automakers, Toyota runs new engines to redline for a while after they are
assembled, and then again on a chassis dyno as the cars are coming off of
the assembly line.
I don't necessarily follow what I preach, and when got in the 200 ~ 300
new cars I've driven, I just drove them the way I expected to use that
particular car, and experienced no engine problems.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

One poster said he would accelerate the engine to the redline. I'm
clearly no expert, but I've never had the engine in either of my Toyotas
within 1500 rpms of the redline, and in fact tend to back off on the
accelerator to get the trans to shift into a higher gear as soon as
warranted. I've got 140K on the older engine and 55K on the newer one
with no problems and they perform perfectly. So I'll leave the redlining to
somebody else.

Ray O

2007-11-24 19:49:22 UTC

Post by mack

Automakers generally know a lot more about their engines and how they are
manufactured than the people who work in repair shops or write magazine
articles and blogs, so IMO, the safest thing to do is to follow the
automaker's break-in recommendations. I'm not sure about other
automakers, Toyota runs new engines to redline for a while after they are
assembled, and then again on a chassis dyno as the cars are coming off of
the assembly line.
I don't necessarily follow what I preach, and when got in the 200 ~ 300
new cars I've driven, I just drove them the way I expected to use that
particular car, and experienced no engine problems.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

The good thing about modern electronically fuel injected engines is that
they have an engine RPM limiter to prevent damage from over-revving. An
occasional trip to redline won't hurt the engine, although a steady diet
will tend to wear stuff a little more quickly.

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Ph@Boy

2007-11-24 20:59:09 UTC

Automakers generally know a lot more about their engines and how they are
manufactured than the people who work in repair shops or write magazine
articles and blogs, so IMO, the safest thing to do is to follow the
automaker's break-in recommendations. I'm not sure about other
automakers, Toyota runs new engines to redline for a while after they are
assembled, and then again on a chassis dyno as the cars are coming off of
the assembly line.
I don't necessarily follow what I preach, and when got in the 200 ~ 300
new cars I've driven, I just drove them the way I expected to use that
particular car, and experienced no engine problems.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

That's a good idiot proof measure to keep most of them from over rev
damage Ray, but for the few folks that prefer to run the engine to red
line and then down shift, they mechanically take the engine way over red
line and usually incur engine and at times drive train damage as well
using that method. It's only money.

Ray O

2007-11-24 21:47:43 UTC

Automakers generally know a lot more about their engines and how they
are manufactured than the people who work in repair shops or write
magazine articles and blogs, so IMO, the safest thing to do is to
follow the automaker's break-in recommendations. I'm not sure about
other automakers, Toyota runs new engines to redline for a while after
they are assembled, and then again on a chassis dyno as the cars are
coming off of the assembly line.
I don't necessarily follow what I preach, and when got in the 200 ~ 300
new cars I've driven, I just drove them the way I expected to use that
particular car, and experienced no engine problems.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

IMO, anyone who takes their engine to redline and is stupid enough to
downshift gets what they deserve ;-)

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Ray

2007-11-25 04:57:40 UTC

Post by Ray O
IMO, anyone who takes their engine to redline and is stupid enough to
downshift gets what they deserve ;-)

Obviously you're not much of a drag racer.

Been there, done that, blown the 2-3 upshift in my Trans Am, fortunately
didn't bend any pushrods. (went 2-1 instead of 2-3, didn't get the
clutch all the way out before realizing what I had done, but probably
overreved it.)

FWIW, the engine still runs fine. The clutch didn't survive the nitrous
though.

It's only money. :)

Ray

Ray O

2007-11-25 07:50:34 UTC

Post by Ray O
IMO, anyone who takes their engine to redline and is stupid enough to
downshift gets what they deserve ;-)

Obviously you're not much of a drag racer.
Been there, done that, blown the 2-3 upshift in my Trans Am, fortunately
didn't bend any pushrods. (went 2-1 instead of 2-3, didn't get the clutch
all the way out before realizing what I had done, but probably overreved
it.)
FWIW, the engine still runs fine. The clutch didn't survive the nitrous
though.
It's only money. :)
Ray

I was talking about intentional downshifts...

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Ray

2007-11-26 06:30:07 UTC

Post by Ray O
IMO, anyone who takes their engine to redline and is stupid enough to
downshift gets what they deserve ;-)

Obviously you're not much of a drag racer.
Been there, done that, blown the 2-3 upshift in my Trans Am, fortunately
didn't bend any pushrods. (went 2-1 instead of 2-3, didn't get the clutch
all the way out before realizing what I had done, but probably overreved
it.)
FWIW, the engine still runs fine. The clutch didn't survive the nitrous
though.
It's only money. :)
Ray

I was talking about intentional downshifts...

I know, I was just yankin' your chain. :)

Frankly, if you redline it and downshift on purpose, you're pretty dumb
and obviously don't know squat about gearing.

Ray O

2007-11-26 06:33:37 UTC

Post by Ray O
IMO, anyone who takes their engine to redline and is stupid enough to
downshift gets what they deserve ;-)

Obviously you're not much of a drag racer.
Been there, done that, blown the 2-3 upshift in my Trans Am, fortunately
didn't bend any pushrods. (went 2-1 instead of 2-3, didn't get the
clutch all the way out before realizing what I had done, but probably
overreved it.)
FWIW, the engine still runs fine. The clutch didn't survive the nitrous
though.
It's only money. :)
Ray

I was talking about intentional downshifts...

I know, I was just yankin' your chain. :)
Frankly, if you redline it and downshift on purpose, you're pretty dumb
and obviously don't know squat about gearing.

Those people will get a pretty quick and expensive education!

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Thomas Tornblom

2007-11-24 21:04:06 UTC

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Ray O

2007-11-24 21:49:16 UTC

Post by Thomas Tornblom
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

I think that what that guy says has merit, which is why I rode the cars that
my friends and relatives were going to buy hard...

--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Ph@Boy

2007-11-26 15:43:03 UTC

Post by Thomas Tornblom
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

I think that what that guy says has merit, which is why I rode the cars that
my friends and relatives were going to buy hard...

Are you saying that with a bit of tongue in cheek Ray? That web site
uses Honda F3 (600cc) motorcycle engine pistons as an example. That is
not really a fair comparison IMHO. Honda uses a completely different
metallurgy for their CBR engine sleeves and rings than a mass produced,
street auto engine. That is partly how they can get a 11500 rpm red line
out of that motor. He is absolutely correct for the motorcycle
application. I have owned and pulled apart many.

I am only aware of one manufacturer (Aprilia) that fills new motors with
synthetic oil, and it does hinder a timely break in, IMHO. New model
sport bike motors are some of the highest internal combustion engine
technology, money can buy. Some exceeding aircraft quality. Incredible
power to weight ratios result in a high performance package you can
purchase for street use. Some will nearly travel 200 mph out of the box
and acceleration almost second to none.

Thomas Tornblom

2007-11-26 16:51:36 UTC

The method is no different for other engines.

http://www.carneyaviation.com/doc/breakin.htm
http://www.flightsafety.org/amb/amb_jan-feb95.pdf

It seems that the aircraft engine industry get it right at least :-)

Many instructions agree that synthetic oil should be avoided during
ring break-in, but is recommended later.

My guess is that an old rental car would probably have good ring seal
:-)

Ray O

2007-11-27 05:50:18 UTC